Agenda and minutes

An apology for absence was received by County Borough Councillors J Bonetto,  J Brencher, J James, W Jones, D Owen-Jones and E Stephens.

To receive disclosures of personal interest from Members in accordance with the Code of Conduct

Note:

1.     Members are requested to identify the item number and subject matter that their interest relates to and signify the nature of the personal interest: and

2.   Where Members withdraw from a meeting as a consequence of the disclosure of a prejudicial interest they must notify the Chairman when they leave.

In accordance with the Council’s Code of Conduct, the following declarations of personal interests were made in respect of Agenda Item 2 - 21st Century Schools and Colleges Programme - Mutual Investment Model (MIM)

County Borough Councillor P Jarman – “I am a member of the Planning & Development Committee, whatever I say today I say with an open mind as I will when the matter comes to the Planning & Development Committee. I will deal with the planning application on the merit of the planning matters of the day, I have not pre-determined the matter”

County Borough Councillor S Rees – “I am the Chair of the Planning & Development Committee”

County Borough Councillor G Caple - “I am the Vice Chair of the Planning & Development Committee”

County Borough Councillor G Hughes – “I am a member of the Planning & Development Committee”

County Borough Councillor W Lewis – “I am a member of the Planning & Development Committee”

The Chair welcomed Members to the Overview & Scrutiny Committee and introductions were made.

To undertake pre-scrutiny of the 21st Century Schools and Colleges Programme - Mutual Investment Model (MIM).

The Overview and Scrutiny Committee received the report of the Director of Education & Inclusion Services in respect of the 21^st Century Schools and Colleges Programme – Mutual Investment Model (MIM). A request had previously been made for this matter to be added to the forward work programme of the Overview & Scrutiny Committee and for it to be brought before Committee at the appropriate time.

Members noted that at this stage the report was seeking approval for the submission of an Outline Business Case to Welsh Government for consideration in July / August 2021 and progression to stage two of the of the MIM process with Welsh Government and the private sector partner.

Following an overview of the report a number of Members sought clarification on the difference between the previous PFI initiative which was a fully inclusive services package and included all facilities management services for a 25-year period, for example cleaning; grounds maintenance; furniture; and ICT to name just a few.  Whereas with the current MIM only building maintenance is provided for the 25-year period.  MIM also has more robust arrangements in place at Welsh Government level, such as a specific Project Director for MIM, a Strategic Partnership Board with representation from all Local Authorities (Andrea Richards and Dave Powell represent RCT), standardised contracts developed by Welsh Government for all Local Authorities and an 81% intervention rate.

Members were keen to identify whether the scheme would proceed if the bid is unsuccessful and asked whether in that case, the local authority has alternative arrangements in place such as a more traditional model of funding.

Members noted that the capital funding for part of the 21st Century Schools and Education Programme, Band B has been committed to the Greater Pontypridd Schools and the whole programme for capital has been allocated. They were advised that MIM, as the only option available to the Local Authority, is advantageous, affordable and enables the local authority and Welsh Government to provide more 21^st Century Schools as it is a source of additional funding. Members were advised that RCT is one of two Local Authorities selected by Welsh Government to progress with a MIM Schools Pathfinder Project.  As a Pathfinder Project and a Net Zero Carbon pilot project, Welsh Government are funding 100% of the additional survey costs and the Net Zero Carbon technical work.

Members raised the following queries with regards to the MIM model itself:

• How do the indicative costs compare to other schools that are traditionally financed?
• The transfer of risk to the private sector- if the companies go into liquidation, who picks up the financial costs and how would the contract be maintained?

Members were advised that in the event of the contractors going into liquidation, any additional costs would be picked up by the Special Purpose Vehicle Company (SPV) – the company established to deliver this project with whom the local authority would have a contract.  The local authority has no direct contact with the contractors, they are  ...  view the full minutes text for item 20.

To receive the report of the Service Director Democratic Services

The Service Director Democratic Services & Communications presented his

report which provided the opportunity for members of the Overview & Scrutiny

Committee to formally consider and adopt its response to the Law

Commission's consultation on Regulating Coal Tip Safety in Wales, following

discussions with representatives from the Law Commission of England and

Wales at its meeting on the 5^th July 2021.

Members were advised that any further comments in respect of the consultation would be added to the attached consultation responses and submitted before the closing date of the 10^th September 2021.

Members considered that although the majority of the draft responses captured their comments and feedback, they wished for the following points to be included before final submission to the Law Commission’s consultation:

Ø  Is it Welsh Government’s intention to repeal the Mines and Quarries (Tips) Act 1969 or remain as England/Wales Legislation amid fears that the two will conflict at some point in the future;

Ø  Consultation question 31 - Generally, Members felt that legislative provision should be made in these instances that specialist, qualified staff and a panel of engineers should be responsible and take action in these circumstances. Members also commented that the proper authority should be making the decisions, taking action (quickly where necessary) and responding to coal tip emergencies;

Ø  Consultation question 32 – Members again sought advice whether Welsh Government will repeal Regulation 40 of the Environmental Permitting Regulations (England and Wales) 2016 in favour of an All-Wales alternative;

Ø  Consultation question 34 -Members hoped that the Ecologists would continue to acknowledge that many coal tips are now developing into unique ecological habitats in their own right;

Ø  Consultation question 13 – Members sought clarification on this response as they felt that Tip Register information should be available to members of the public but were mindful that certain information contained within the tip register should not be accessible to the public, such as personal information, calculations and costings. With regard to tip inspection reports the Committee suggested that these could be released if there is a standard uniform approach and classification to the tip reports and they are undertaken by experienced, competent engineers. However, the Service Director Highways and Transportation recognised there may be further clarification to be sought from the Council’s Legal Services in advance of a response being provided and advised that he would confirm this following the meeting.

Ø  Members discussed the serious legacies that remain with mining industries and acknowledged the uncertainties relating to the heritage infrastructure.

Following further consideration of the issues and responses, Committee RESOLVED:

·       To include the above-mentioned additions to the consultation responses in advance of submission; and

·       That a letter to the appropriate Ministers is sent on behalf of the Overview & Scrutiny Committee seeking clear and unequivocable clarification as to whether Welsh Government will repeal the Mines and Quarries (Tips) Act 1969 or whether it will remain as two separate Legislations and whether the Regulation 40 of the Environmental Permitting Regulations (England and  ...  view the full minutes text for item 21.

To receive the report of the Service Director Democratic Services & Communication

The Service Director Democratic Services & Communications presented his

report which sought Members’ feedback on the consultation initiated

by Welsh Government on the next set of general regulations – the Corporate

Joint Committee (General) (No.2) (Wales) Regulations 2021.

The Service Director advised that despite the late notification of the consultation this

would be an opportunity for Committee to respond to the next set of general

regulations concerning the roles of certain ‘executive officers’ to support the work of

the CJC, some general provisions in relation to the staff of a CJC and discharge of

functions of a CJC by other persons (sub-committees, staff etc). The Service Director

highlighted one significant change relating to the removal of the Chief Governance

Officer so that the ‘small number of functions identified could be undertaken by the

CJC Monitoring Officer’.

In conclusion, the Service Director reported that the next stages will involve a further  

consultation on the draft statutory guidance for the Establishment of CJCs, which will

run for 12 weeks and close on the Monday 4 October 2021. He proposed that the

Overview & Scrutiny Committee consider this consultation at its meeting on the 21^st

September 2021.

Members noted the significant change as outlined by the Service Director and raised

a query with regards to the appointment of the Chief Monitoring Officer and Chief

Executive and whether they would have dual mandates and also serve the

respective local authorities, essentially wearing ‘two-statutory hats’ within these roles.

Concern was raised as to the employment of staff to service the CJC with no local

knowledge of the geographical area in question.

Members commented that the CJC would be a powerful organisation to which certain

statutory services will transfer with the local authority Leaders at the centre of the

decision-making process.

The Chair raised concern with the proposal to remove the Chief Governance Officer,

with the scant information available and with the lack of scrutiny and accountability

associated with the proposals. He welcomed further information regarding the

scrutiny arrangements in due course.

Another Member shared his misgivings with the model particularly with regards to the access to information whereby members of the Principal Authorities will have access to documents excluding those containing exempt information. The Member suggested that the exempt reports contain the more important information and decision-making processes. Concern was also raised with regards to the budget setting which the CJC will be able do before any agreement by the Principal Authority. It was noted that this would impede the scrutiny of both the finances and access to information.

The Service Director acknowledged the need for confidentiality in certain cases such as with the Cardiff Capital Region (CCR) City Deal around issues relating to commercially sensitive information and suggested this may be a drafting error.

The Committee further discussed the CJC budget setting and concerns that the proposals may have a detrimental impact on the local authority budget and whether there may be cuts as a consequence.

In conclusion one Member pointed  ...  view the full minutes text for item 22.

To reflect on the meeting and actions to be taken forward.

The Chair of the Overview & Scrutiny Committee took the opportunity to summarise the key points from the meeting which had undertaken pre scrutiny of the Mutual Investment Model (with comments to be presented to the Cabinet on the 24^th July), provided a formal response to the Welsh Government consultation regarding the Corporate Joint Committee (General) (No.2)(Wales) Regulations 2021and formalised its responses for the Law Commission’s consultation on the Regulation of coal tip safety in Wales.

In conclusion, the Chair thanked Officers and Members for their attendance and contributions.